Michael Dresser interview with Kay Mouradian
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0:00 — How the book began
0:02 Welcome back. I'm Michael. You're listening to Thought Provoking Talk on the Michael Dresser Show. Authors answers and, listen to the words, solutions coast to coast on the lifestyle talk radio network. Our guest, Dr. Kay Mouradian, and the book is A Gift in the Sunlight, an Armenian story. Kay's a retired professor of health and physical education. Her publications include reflective meditation, a mind-calming technique, as well as a number of articles. She wrote a gift in the sunlight after her mother's remarkable recovery from death's door prompted her to examine her own ancestral past. And after working in various libraries and archives in the United States,

0:40 she visited the village where her mother and her mother's family, along with 20,000 other Armenians, were forced to leave their homes. Traveling across the same deportation route where more than a million Armenians were forced to march during the Armenian genocide, she became acutely aware of the suffering of her mother's generation and the lingering sense of injustice that they carried. Kay, hi. Welcome to the show. Thank you. Thank you. Everything that I have read about this, they said it's an absolute masterpiece. So let me take you back and say a gift in the sunlight, the Armenian story. What was it?

1:13 What really triggered you to say you had to put this to pen? You studied it, you researched it, you got that part down, but then you had to write about it. What was that? Well, you know, when I was a youngster growing up back in Boston, my mom would tell me these stories that happened to her in Turkey, and they would just go in one ear and write out the other. I could have cared less. And so I went through my whole adult life really not knowing what happened to the Armenians back in the early part of the 19th century in Turkey. And then the last five years of my mother's life was rather fascinating because she died in 1989,

1:54 but she should have died in 1984. And in that interim of five years, she had four near-death experiences before she finally let go and did move on. And in one of those, she came back and said, I was going to write a novel about her life, and I immediately dismissed it because I was already in the midst of researching materials for an entirely different book and had been accepted to study in Beijing. And I was on my way to Beijing as soon as my mother died. At that time, she was 83. Well, she hung on for another five years, and in those five years, every time she came back from whatever those experiences were, she came back more alert mentally

2:44 and more loving. And by the time she died, she was absolutely irresistible. Was she a different woman? Was she not who you knew as mom? You know, my mother's whole life was colored by the genocide, colored with self-pity. And in those last five years, she released that self-pity. It just wasn't there, and it took me a couple of months to realize why she was so different. And she had let go of that hatred because, as you can imagine, having lost her whole family, her education, and coming to a foreign country to marry a man she didn't know,

3:21 her whole life was totally turned upside down, and that pain was very difficult for her to believe. Now, what was it about the Armenians that the Turks decided to eliminate them from society? Well, you know, this is something, I think, that most of the population needs to understand a little bit better. No concept, by the way, Kay. Realists, we've got a minute before the break, and we can continue on, but before we get into it, I don't want to get you started and then have to stop you. But before we go any farther, we have to realize that I would venture to guess that this is information

3:59 not necessarily covered or masked, but this is information that really hasn't been disseminated through the public, and I would think that most people, if you ask them about the Armenian genocide, they would have no concept, no idea the where, the when, and the why. So when we come back, we're going to ask why. The book is A Gift in the Sunlight, an Armenian story. Our guest, Dr. Kay Mouradian, and we'll be right back with Kay right after this. I'm Michael Dresser. You're listening to the Lifestyle Talk with you network.

7:52 — History, research, and writing
7:52 Welcome back. I'm Michael. You are listening to Thought Provoking Talk on the Michael Dresser Show. Let us reenter the realm of possibility. The book is A Gift in the Sunlight. An American Story. A novel by Dr. Kay Mouradian.

8:08 K, let's go back to where we were right before the break. What was it about the Armenians that the Turks needed to destroy? Let me first talk about Henry Morgenthau, who was the ambassador to the Ottoman Empire. Please. Between 1913 and 1916. And when most people hear the name Henry Morgenthau,

8:28 they think of his son, who was Secretary of Treasury under Roosevelt. But his dad, Morgenthau Sr., was the ambassador in the Ottoman Empire. And he said when the Turkish authorities gave orders for these deportations, they were merely giving the death warrant to a whole race. They understood this well. And in their conversations with me, they made no particular attempt to conceal the fact.

8:57 Now, in his memoir, he referred to this tragedy as the murder of a nation. And when people talk about the Armenian genocide, they don't actually realize that it was the entire nation of Armenia that was in the land of Anatolia that was taken by the Turks. And that's really why the deportation occurred. If I could just mention that in 1912, Bulgaria, Serbia, and Montenegro, and Greece went to war with the Turks.

9:33 And Bulgaria, Serbia, and Montenegro had gotten their independence. And what the Turks were afraid of is that Armenia would be the next nation to get her independence. So Talat Pasha, who at the time was the Minister of Interior, and the architect of the deportations told Henry Morgenthau, he said, we will not lose Armenia. So that was the reason. So really it was a power grab and it was land.

10:04 Absolutely. Power grab and land. And the reason the Turkish lobby and government are working so hard to kill the Armenian resolution in Congress is because they are afraid of reparations. And Secretary Gates, in a little snippet on one of the news programs, said that the Turks are very serious about this because they are afraid of reparations and they are afraid that they will lose land and there will be a border change. And it's going to be interesting because of what's going on today in Iraq with the Turks and the Kurds.

10:42 Yes, yes. So we throw all those things into the mix and we see that it's nothing different. It's the same thing. I know. Man's power. Yeah, absolutely it is. Power, power, power. Yes. And it hasn't changed. It has not changed.

10:59 My father in 18... You ready for that? No, I couldn't have been my father. My father in the... Somewhere in 1889, 1890, he was born. But he was born in Turkey and his mom and dad were Russian. And there was about, oh my goodness, there was seven kids, I think it was, and four survived. My grandfather died and my grandmother had to get them back to Russia and the Russians rejected it because they were not Russian citizens.

11:35 They were Turkey and she smuggled them. That should have been a book in and of itself. But the point of contention in those days, Turkey was like the wild west. People were going there to settle it. Turkey was the wild west. And one of the interesting things I came across in my research was that Constantinople was the center for white slavery, for the white slave trade at that time. So, I mean, it was... You know, as a writer, I've heard that writers often say the best part of writing is the research. And I have to admit, I got hooked.

12:12 And I just couldn't get enough. And I probably spent three years reading before I even started the novel. I'm going to ask a question and it's going to probably be from what you just said, a myriad of answers to this. And it happens to all writers, and I don't care what it is, the subject matter is fact, fun, fiction, fantasy. It doesn't matter. There comes that time in the writing of the novel that there is this cathartic epiphany, this aha moment, when you realize that there is a dimension of the subject matter that you had no idea existed and you grew from it. Where was that for you? You know, the whole part of it was an epiphany for me.

12:55 You know, I was in that march, in that death march, in my mind's eye. And this is really a very, very painful story to write. And I wanted my mother and her family to be representative of every Armenian family that was deported at that time. And so, it was just a painful... It was painful. That's all I will say. Of course. That's the story. Yeah.

13:24 But it's out there and... Did you live through your mom's eyes? I... Did you have to become her to really write it? You know, I had to become an Armenian. Not so much my mother's eyes, but the Armenian eyes. Because it was the entire group, the two million, you know, how they suffered through there.

13:44 Sure. And it would have been so much kinder to just have taken a gun and just shot them all, and have them march for 500, 600, 700 miles, and then starve to death. Yeah, I don't get. And in my heart of hearts, I do not get why, over the years, in the historically, traditionally, countries, whether it be the Armenians, whether it be the Jews, whether it be the something, somebody is always killing groups and masses, pointing their finger at them and saying,

14:15 it's your fault because of yada yada. They band together those people that are in the country. They give them identity through the death. If they would have just killed them, it would not have had the impact that it had as they marched them. So there was reason and purpose behind it all. What reason and purpose? I couldn't justify in my life, in 10 lifetimes.

14:37 But at the same time, there was purpose in all of it, the B'tan death march. Same, same. Yeah. And the cruelty that's involved with it. You know, as these people, if they didn't die on the side of the road and they were so thirsty, and they came by some water, the soldiers would force them to pay to drink the water. I mean, it was a very, very cruel way to get rid of a population.

15:03 Absolutely. But those people who were perpetrating the act, for them it wasn't cruel. For them, that was their way of life. Let's get it done. Death had absolutely no meaning whatsoever. And how? Well, we're going to go to break in about 30 seconds, but rhetorically.

15:17 How do you deal with a culture or society like that? And with that, we're going to go to break. We'll be right back. A Gift in the Sunlight, an Armenian story. Our guest author, Kay Mouradian. We'll be right back right after this. I'm Michael.

15:30 You're listening to the Michael Dresser Show on the Lifestyle Talk Radio Network.

19:56 — Reconciliation and education
19:56 Welcome back. I'm Michael. You're listening to Thought Provoking Talk. I'm The Michael Dresser Show. The book is A Gift in the Sunlight in Armenian Story. A novel by our guest, Dr. Kay Mouradian. Kay, let me ask you this. What lesson is there to be learned in this?

20:09 You know, I was mentioning to you about the last five years of my mother's life. Yes. Both magical and mystical. And she really is an example of what can happen when a victim lets go of deep hurt. And I really wonder how much better the world would be if perpetrators exhibited that same kind of reaction

20:28 and took full responsibility for their actions. And, you know, in my heart of hearts, I really wonder if the Turk and the Armenian, whose hatred of one another is so well known throughout the world, if they can actually demonstrate to the world that reconciliation is possible, maybe they could become examples for those others

20:49 whose long-standing hatred has caused so much horrific pain to others. Okay. Well, when we talk about being examples in the long-standing hatred, the operative words are long-standing. You don't take something that's, obviously, you know, you don't take something that's been ingrained for so many decades and turn it overnight.

21:09 You know, it's behavior. We learn to be a particular way. And based on that behavior, it creates the emotions and also whatever our morality and integrity is. Yeah. And the human being is capable of so much. And we're also capable of some very terrible things.

21:28 Oh, sure. But, you know, it's interesting if you break the word integrity down, it means nothing more than being true to yourself, acting outwardly as you feel inwardly. So these people who are killing and doing this are living with the highest of integrity based on their definition, their model, and who they are in their life.

21:45 Yeah. So how do you take that away when you say, you know, is it right? Well, for me, it's right. I don't mean me, Michael, personally. Yes. Yeah.

21:54 How do you take that away? I think there has to be a real strong evaluation or reevaluation of the human being and what the human being is capable of. You know, we humans live in an animal body. And I think because this body of ours is an animal, we have a tendency to act very animal-like.

22:17 And I think our purpose is to kind of tame it and give it a better understanding of the human being. But anyway, that's what I think. And what you think is important, obviously that's what drove you to write and do what you did in the book. My takeaway from this is what?

22:42 I read it page by page, cover to cover. What's my takeaway? What do I, Michael, get that I didn't have? What belongs to me now that wasn't there before I started? Well, what belongs to you is an understanding of the Armenian genocide, number one, and why Armenians are making so much noise about it.

23:01 You know, for the last 90 years, we've been trying to get Turkey to recognize it. And somehow they keep saying that the genocide did not occur. And as with all genocides, the first that are gone are the intellectuals. And so one of my purposes in this is to try to promote an idea. You know, having been an educator most of my life,

23:25 for reparations, if we ever get to that, I would like to see an idea brought up in the area that maybe the Turks could pay for the college tuition of every Armenian kid who wants to go to college. Okay, we're running out of time. Do you have a website we can find you at? [website address unclear in the transcription]

23:43 Wonderful. Hey, Kay Mouradian, and thank you so much for joining us. Thank you, Michael. Take care. I'm Michael Dresser. You're listening to the Michael Dresser show on the Lifestyle Talk Radio Network.

23:52 And that, my friends, is a wrap.